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My favorite Faux Space Family begins its trek across wherever. Let's talk about:

- 33
- Water
- Bastille Day

Jacob never recapped this season, so there's a dearth of pith and wisdom out there and I feel like we can fix that. (Plus, "dearth of pith"? That was fun to say.)

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marymary
Nov. 18th, 2006 07:57 pm (UTC)
I suggest that we kind of discuss the episodes in order, which will certainly then dissolve into themes and arcs and stuff. Is that cool?

So, "33". I like the whole premise of the episode. Great natural tension, the jump every 33. And I love how they resolve it – the Cylons tracking the Olympic Carrier. It's a really nice package: it furthers the point that the Cylons are tracking/infiltrating them, makes the humans feel even more vulnerable, and sets up an interesting dilemma for Roslin/Adama/Lee.

My favorite moment is the twisty point: when we realize that Adama had this theory in his head as soon as they left the Olympic Carrier behind. They got to 33 and he said, “Keep the clock running.” When the OC caught up, they were all relieved except for him. Adama: “Reset the clock.” Tigh takes a beat. “I hope you’re wrong.” Great, great writing and acting there.

And I think, given where Bill's character is going relative to Lee and Roslin (more later), it's really essential that we see that he's sharp and that he's right, and saves the fleet again.
tomfoolery815
Nov. 18th, 2006 08:05 pm (UTC)
I suggest that we kind of discuss the episodes in order, which will certainly then dissolve into themes and arcs and stuff. Is that cool?
Cool. :-)
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tomfoolery815
Nov. 18th, 2006 08:00 pm (UTC)
There's more than a little 9/11 imagery in "33," isn't there?

-- The walls filled with the pictures of the missing. I think it was a good choice to have Dualla be the one to walk into that area. Kandyse McClure is petite, so when it's her walking in there -- then the camera pulls back to reveal the magnititude -- she seems to represent the frailty of humankind. (Not that Dualla's not tough. She's just tiny, you know?)

-- The whiteboard, upon which Laura tabulates the number of the living, reminded me of how much the 9/11 death toll kept shifting. But the number means everything, really, in both instances.

I don't mean to jump to the end of the ep (and later, back) with my first post, but this seems like the place to say it: At the end, when Billy tells Laura that a baby was born, she increases the whiteboard number by one. The look on her face is this perfect mix of tears of joy, a smile and exhaustion. Brava, Mary McD. :-)

Why do the Cylons come every 33 minutes? Because they're trying to finish off the humans, and logic says they'll be easier to finish off if they're exhausted. So say I. :-)

Speaking of exhausted ... all the men have five days' stubble, and all the women have the rings under their eyes ... except for Dualla. It's harder to have exhaustion show on your face when your skin is perfect.
eloriekam
Aug. 27th, 2008 04:29 am (UTC)
The look on her face is this perfect mix of tears of joy, a smile and exhaustion.

*nods* I'm finding season 1 to be chock full of all those little moments that don't necessarily inform the story a great deal more, but say some lovely little thing about the character(s), whether the character(istic)(s) is/are actually lovely or not. That scene was all the more important because it was a definite ray of hope.

One thing I thought of when I watched this after having watched everything else: that... I don't know what to call it... the body language of squee wherein Laura bends at the knees and sometimes the waist, with the result that she somehow looks even happier/more excited than before--do you know, Tom (or anyone else) if that's something Mary McDonnell's using just for Laura, or if, as with the putting on of Jed Bartlet's jacket, that's something she's just brought to the character? I wouldn't have thought about her doing it in '33' if I hadn't seen her do it* more in later episodes.

*AD subtext unintentional, at least before I reread it.
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tomfoolery815
Nov. 18th, 2006 08:04 pm (UTC)
And I think, given where Bill's character is going relative to Lee and Roslin (more later), it's really essential that we see that he's sharp and that he's right, and saves the fleet again.
Yes. And that Roslin respects him, too. There's the moment when she asks about Condition 2: He gets defensive, says it's a military decision, and she realizes that he thinks she's challenging her. But she's not, so they exchange thanks.

And yes, Mary, you were right: The Lee/Kate confrontation on the flight deck was kinda hot. In that there's more than one kind of heat in the air between them. The scene was funny, too: "Glad I don't work for you." :-)
marymary
Nov. 18th, 2006 08:37 pm (UTC)
The Lee/Kate confrontation on the flight deck was kinda hot.

(Kara) Yes, that’s how I like my incestuous tension, my friends. She rips him a new one, and she’s right. He’s steaming. Until they crack up. “Do I have to smack you on the mouth?” guh. And she crunches the pills --- that’s Kara: always in your face. And sometimes it’s hot. Chief’s reaction is priceless.

-- The walls filled with the pictures of the missing. I think it was a good choice to have Dualla be the one to walk into that area. Kandyse McClure is petite, so when it's her walking in there -- then the camera pulls back to reveal the magnititude -- she seems to represent the frailty of humankind. (Not that Dualla's not tough. She's just tiny, you know?)

Yeah, that's a good point. ('d never thought about the choice to use her and how that helps the scale of things. I always liked that they didn't get a reaction shot from her, just watched her walk into the hallways of photos, which gets bigger and bigger.

-- The whiteboard, upon which Laura tabulates the number of the living, reminded me of how much the 9/11 death toll kept shifting. But the number means everything, really, in both instances.

Yeah, good point. The whiteboard, as you can see, is the whole ballgame to Laura. And she has the added pressure of wanting to see that number stable or rising, and wanting to get those people in a protected place before she dies.

Why do the Cylons come every 33 minutes? Because they're trying to finish off the humans, and logic says they'll be easier to finish off if they're exhausted. So say I. :-)

I have always assumed that it took exactly 33 minutes for the Cylons to find and jump to the location of their beacon or communicator or whatever it was on the Olympic Carrier. It's just the fastest they could ever get there. As Cylons, it's not like it took 33 or 42 or 37 minutes, always 33.
tuesday_suit
Sep. 29th, 2008 02:32 pm (UTC)
The Lee/Kate confrontation on the flight deck was kinda hot.

(Kara) Yes, that’s how I like my incestuous tension, my friends. She rips him a new one, and she’s right. He’s steaming. Until they crack up. “Do I have to smack you on the mouth?” guh. And she crunches the pills --- that’s Kara: always in your face.


I *love* that scene. The best part is the salute she gives him after she takes her stims like a good little soldier. Sort of respectful, but mostly mocking, because she's Kara and he's Lee, and, well, you know.

And his tone when he asks her if he needs to smack her in the mouth - just a *touch* lower, a bit softer....guh.

This is from Strega's review on TWoP:

Credits. That was a long, long teaser. Nine minutes, counting the "previously"s. Which, if you assume the episode is the standard forty-two minutes long, means the rest of the episode is...they're cute bastards, aren't they?

I checked. She's right. They're very cute bastards. :-)
(Deleted comment)
marymary
Nov. 18th, 2006 08:52 pm (UTC)
Honey, it's Kara.
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tomfoolery815
Nov. 18th, 2006 08:49 pm (UTC)
It's cool, and funny, to see the early development of the role Chip Six plays in Baltar's head.

-- "Have you always been so good at multi-tasking?" Hee.

-- When things go well for Baltar at this stage, he immediately snaps back to Chip Six and their place on Caprica.

But this is my favorite Baltar moment in "33:"
BILLY: Thank the gods you're with us.
BALTAR: God's got nothing to do with this.

I know Baltar's an atheist at this point. But he's got Chip Six talking to him about God. So he really needs to advocate science over faith at this point; if God does exist, there's a red-hot poker with the words "For use on Gaius Baltar" on it. :-)
marymary
Nov. 18th, 2006 08:58 pm (UTC)
What I've always found interesting is that Gaius uses the word "God", not "gods". And, if memory serves, no one ever calls him on this. Now, maybe the word "God" is used, in general, to refer to the divine. But I don't think any other human uses "God".
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marymary
Nov. 18th, 2006 08:51 pm (UTC)
I didn't mean to suggest that it was arbitrary. :-)

No, I didn't think that. I had just never thought that the Cylons were thinking about exhausting the humans, though you might be right. I was just thinking that they got there exactly as soon as they could get there, the faster to kill them.

It seems easy to perceive more than one kind of tension between them, when it's there. :-)

In future episodes, it will be easier to "perceive" the tension. This is no CJ and Toby. :)
tuesday_suit
Sep. 29th, 2008 02:34 pm (UTC)
In future episodes, it will be easier to "perceive" the tension. This is no CJ and Toby. :)

Hee. Damn straight. And that's how I like my sexual tenstion - very perceptible. ;-)
tomfoolery815
Nov. 18th, 2006 09:00 pm (UTC)
I have always assumed that it took exactly 33 minutes for the Cylons to find and jump to the location of their beacon or communicator or whatever it was on the Olympic Carrier. It's just the fastest they could ever get there. As Cylons, it's not like it took 33 or 42 or 37 minutes, always 33.
Right. If it took them 22 minutes to do that, they would attack every 22 minutes. I didn't mean to suggest that it was arbitrary. :-)

Yes, that’s how I like my incestuous tension, my friends.
Well as you said, they're not REALLY brother and sister.
:-) There's a moment in "You Can't Go Home Again" (you know the one, but I'll hush). The previews for the next Season 3 episode, where Lee and Kara are boxing, but it's clearly not just "letting off steam" as Bill would hope? It seems easy to perceive more than one kind of tension between them, when there is tension. :-)

(And now I've messed up the sequence ... but I was fixing something else. I hadn't realized my Kate/Kara mistake.)

In future episodes, it will be easier to "perceive" the tension. This is no CJ and Toby. :)
I see. :-)

When Saul is savoring the thought of extended shut-eye ... I just KNEW that there was a little too much man-love happening in that moment for Saul to actually get his sleep. There's a near-permanent feeling of doom.

I imagine Saul's devotion to Bill, as seen at this point -- "The old man's so tired he forgot it's his turn." -- makes the schism harder to watch. (Hey, another Jed and Leo, where the Leo has a drinking problem!) :-)
deelaa
Nov. 22nd, 2006 11:55 pm (UTC)
I want to send you an email privately, will you email me at Keytus@gmail.com?
ok_with_that
Nov. 23rd, 2006 12:51 am (UTC)
dee, you mean this for mary, yes?
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marymary
Nov. 24th, 2006 05:50 am (UTC)
Water
I thought I'd kick off a discussion of "Water". Feel free to post more on "33" and stuff, but I think the four of us active here have seen at least through "Water" so we might as well dive in. :)

Sorry, this first post is going to be long.
Lee tells Bill he’s been thinking about the Olympic Carrier.
Bill: “That was three days ago.”
Lee: “As leaders, don’t we have a responsibility to question ourselves?”
Bill: “A man takes responsibility for his actions, right or wrong. He accepts the consequences and lives with them, every day.”

Having watched from the beginning until now, I am a fan of Commander Adama. But this incredible exchange really illustrates the early father/son struggle for them.
• Bill’s first comment, “three days ago” minimizes Lee’s concern; he’s basically calling him a wimp for whining about it. “It” being the possible killing of over 1000 civilians. You know, whatever.
• Bill’s comment, starting with “A man takes responsibility….” IMO, when someone starts a statement that way, it’s completely loaded. The “man” in question is the speaker. He’s the real man, make no mistake. The speaker is therefore putting the listener, the other, in the role of “not a man” --- the one who needs to be schooled on what it is to be a man. The unbelievable hubris of one person defining himself as the very prototype for his sex, and defining the other as less than that --- I can’t tell you how I much I hate that.
• What’s even more incredible is that Bill’s criterion for manhood is being met by Lee, by his question. Lee is saying that they should examine their actions --- to be responsible, to become better as leaders. That is taking responsibility for his actions. Blaming his actions on the order or the situation would be deflecting that responsibility.
• I think it’s really touching the way Lee phrases the question. “As leaders, don’t we have the responsibility…” He’s defining himself as part of Bill’s dynasty, which speaks to Bill’s whole purpose in life. He’s validating Bill’s role as the head of this dynasty --- the position, the very mind-set which Lee believes ended his brother’s life. (Lee believes that Bill couldn’t accept that Zach wasn’t destined for a life in the military, like the rest of his family.) So Lee has stopped blaming Bill for Zach’s death, it seems. And the question also places Lee as willing student to Bill. He’s no longer challenging his father, but seeking to learn from him at a time when he (Lee) is really struggling with something.

Even sweeter is the bookend to this, at the end of the episode. Roslin opens the subject, without anything from Lee.

Roslin: “I know what a hard thing that is to live with, for all of us.”
Lee: “A man… (he repeats almost the same thing that Bill said to him)”
Roslin: “But a leader remembers and learns from his mistakes.”

Maybe not surprisingly, Lee repeats nearly the same thing that Bill said to him. But Roslin says to Lee what Lee had said to his father in the first place. That leaders have a responsibility to question themselves. Roslin heals the wound, brings Lee back to his original, correct, feeling on this. Roslin is the typical mother --- concerned about his feelings, reaching out without being prompted, healing him. Watch for these “mom and dad” scenes with Roslin/Adama. They don’t always play the same way, but there are family roles to be filled on BG. Roslin and Adama are the parents; Lee, Kara, Sharon, Billy etc. are the children and the siblings to each other.
tomfoolery815
Nov. 24th, 2006 07:00 am (UTC)
Re: Water
I agree and disagree. I'm about to draw a TWW comparison; I know I keep doing that, but I haven't liked too many shows this much.

The “man” in question is the speaker. He’s the real man, make no mistake. The speaker is therefore putting the listener, the other, in the role of “not a man” --- the one who needs to be schooled on what it is to be a man.
Definitely. Bill is definitely saying to Lee "You are deficient in manhood here." But that is a role that fathers believe they play for their sons: Defining manhood. Bill's ignoring the fact that Lee already is an adult.

The unbelievable hubris of one person defining himself as the very prototype for his sex, and defining the other as less than that --- I can’t tell you how I much I hate that.
I'm not sure it's always as hubristic as that. I think, sometimes, it's more "my father taught this to me, and his father taught it to him." That's how I see it in the case of Bill and Lee. Bill may even think that he hasn't taught Lee this particular lesson; maybe fathers never stop thinking of their role in these terms. Clearly Bill thinks Lee still needs this schooling.

There is, I think, a difference when a man does the "A man ..." bit to a peer. I'm thinking of Matt and Ricky on last Monday's "Studio 60," and Leo to Jed in "Let Bartlet be Bartlet" (Charlie goes anyway "... because a man stands up.") When peers do it, it's more "You know the standard of manhood I'm talking about." When it's peers as opposed to father/son, there's no disadvantageous position. There's still an implicit challenge, but it's "you know" rather than "it appears you don't know."

Plus, a man also is free to disagree with the other man's definition of manhood. It's not as if any of this is written down anywhere. Sometimes a man stands up by saying to the other man "You're wrong."

And the question also places Lee as willing student to Bill.
True. Which, to me, says Lee is willing to attend more of Professor Bill's Manhood Lectures. It doesn't necessarily mean he's going to practice manhood the same way. His willingness to listen to Laura shows his willingness to not practice leadership exactly as his father would.

(There's a scene in "Hero" that connects to this topic nicely.)
Re: Water - marymary - Nov. 24th, 2006 03:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
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marymary
Nov. 24th, 2006 05:50 am (UTC)
The other thing I love about Lee/Roslin in this episode is the politics thing. She assumes that Adama’s doing the ceremonial stuff for his own sake. Afterward, Lee sets her straight. “He’s trying to make you feel like the President.” (I hear Ainsley in my head. “I am mortified to discover there’s reason to believe I wasn’t before.”) When Lee delivers that line, Roslin does one of her patented whole-body turns to look at him. I LOVE those. It’s such a fabulous gesture of incredulity. (You know who also does that? Sam Seaborn. Hee.) Roslin swallows that sputter of rage and decides that she needs “advice on the military” from Lee. Drawing him closer to her. (And really, who wouldn’t?)
tomfoolery815
Nov. 24th, 2006 07:17 am (UTC)
Roslin swallows that sputter of rage and decides that she needs “advice on the military” from Lee.
And when that does come up later (I think this is the context, Lee pointing out what Roslin is asking him to do; I can't go back to the DVD because I already returned it) ... she says "I appreciate the complexity of the issue ... and I won't let that happen." (She says this to Lee, right?) Regardless of the listener, I'm sure of what I think the translation is: "You're going to do this. Don't make me give you a direct order."
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marymary
Nov. 24th, 2006 05:52 am (UTC)
Sharon finds Helo on the surface of Caprica.
Helo: “Why’d you come back for me?
mary: “Is this a trick question?”
amycurl
Jun. 4th, 2007 03:23 pm (UTC)
BWHAHAHAHAH!!!
tomfoolery815
Nov. 24th, 2006 07:29 am (UTC)
Grace Park, besides being gorgeous, is a really good actress, and it's on display in this episode. In the scene with the Chief where she's freaking out about the missing detonator, he says something, and she puts her hand over his mouth. They're in a secure, secluded room, but she's so freaked that she's reacting as a child would.

I also like how she portrays Sharon's inner struggle when they're on the Raptor searching for water; how her status as a sleeper comes over her like a fever and is causing her to lie. I can't decide if the detonator on the seat is jamming her programming, thus generating what would be a catastrophic (for the humans) lie about the presence of water, or if it's there as a self-destruct for her to use if necessary.
marymary
Nov. 24th, 2006 03:59 pm (UTC)
I agree about Grace Park. You know, lots of people on TWoP were calling her a bad actress all the way into Season 2 --- I do not understand that.

I think Grace Park's characters play maybe the most critical role in the whole series. She is the twisty point. She is the positive intersection between human and Cylon, just as Baltar is the negative. She is a "good" Cylon, whose treatment will throw light on the fact that the humans are not all good and whose behavior illustrates that Cylons are not all bad. Baltar is the "bad" human, who illustrates the reverse.

I love that Boomer confides in the Chief the minute that she find herself in that baffling situation with the detonation caps. It is something in her nature. (And, you can argue, an "Eight's" nature. I believe in that reciprocal thing in people’s personalities --- if you think everyone’s a cheater, you’re probably a cheater. If you trust people, you can probably be trusted. You project yourself as a template on the world. So this is Sharon (both Boomer and others). She knows the danger of sharing this information in general, but she runs to Chief to tell him. She is not wrong; he has her back.

On the raptor, looking for water. I don't think there's any reason to believe that the detonator was affecting her in any way. I think she has layers in her --- the human personality and memories which are active right now, and the Cylon motivations and directives which have been latent. The Cylon stuff is now coming through, and this is one example. Sometimes she blacks out and does things, as a Cylon, that she doesn't remember later. Sometimes the Cylon in her does not allow her to see the words right in front of her. It was a really fun moment when "Boomer" broke through that and identified the water.

(And again she trusts Chief to check the raptor and remove the explosive.)
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tomfoolery815
Nov. 24th, 2006 07:37 am (UTC)
I also really like James Callis in this episode. Specifically, as he's sitting down to play cards, the way he shifts rapidly from charming -- to Gaeta: "Don't let me keep you" -- to his eyes bugging out of his head. In that one facial expression, Callis conveys how Gaius is having a hell of a time keeping all his subterfuge and posing in order.

But Gaius Baltar in a card game? No wonder he excels ... who bluffs better? I thought, when the game was over, Kara was a little turned on. She seems to relish the idea of a worthy challenger at that card game, since there seem to be so few.
marymary
Nov. 24th, 2006 04:01 pm (UTC)
Yes! The other funny thing was the way Baltar was talking to Adama, about what he needs for his detector.
Baltar: “I need large samples of tetrahydracycline which, I don’t have to tell you…well, maybe I DO have to tell you, but it’s a highly unstable compound.”
Ha! This is what’s so great about James Callis in this role. He’s quivering and paranoid; he’s haughty, disdainful, superior; he dodges and evades and tries to cover for the hallucinations, but so badly! He has to strike so many notes and make it one guy. And so many moments like this one, especially in the first season and maybe season two, are really funny. I think he’s awesome.

I thought, when the game was over, Kara was a little turned on. She seems to relish the idea of a worthy challenger at that card game, since there seem to be so few.

Yes. : )
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marymary
Nov. 24th, 2006 05:58 pm (UTC)
G.I.P: one of my new icons. :)
tomfoolery815
Nov. 24th, 2006 10:10 pm (UTC)
That's an awful lot of pretty for a 1-inch by 1-inch space. :-)
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