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Where Starbuck finally gets her hands on Apollo's arrow.
- The Hand of God
- Colonial Day
- Kobol's Last Gleaming, 1 and 2

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marymary
Dec. 20th, 2006 06:26 am (UTC)
(sorry about the double-post...:) bad, bad tags.)

Well, wats, I absolutely see your point. The humans worship the gods of our ancient Greeks; the Cylons have one god, so it's logical to assume that they are totally separate religions. The assumption is that the Cylon's one god is like our Christian God, which has no real relationship to ancient greek "mythology" as we call it.

I agree with Tom that they use the same texts, but interpret them differently, and here's why. At one point (I honestly can't remember where) ChipSix explains to Baltar that the humans' gods, the lords of Kobol, were not actually gods; they just thought they were and so did the people. And, as you say, ChipSix quotes the same scriptures. So, in my mind, the two belief systems are more analagous to Jewish and Christian faiths. Jews and Christians agree on the events of the Old Testament, but differ in their interpretations. And, more importantly, they differ in the "what's next" part. Jews believe that Jesus was one of many prophets serving the one God, but not divine himself. Christians belief that Jesus was the Chosen One, part of God itself, and that believing in him offers the only salvation. So I think that the Cylons believe that all that Kobol stuff happened, and they have read all the same texts, but they think that the humans have misunderstood everything and don't realize that there's one God directing all of them (humans and Cylons alike). Would that make sense?
marymary
Dec. 20th, 2006 06:34 am (UTC)
Ok, the last thing I have on Hand of God. And it's pretty nit-picky but here goes. Helo and Sharon are in a hay-loft (which, quite frankly, they wasted) and she crawls a few feet from him and throws up. He comes over and they have a little conversation, seemingly right over the puddle. Ick. But my problem with it is the morning sickness device. TV and movie writers love to use morning sickness to herald a pregnancy, but it usually doesn't start until 6 weeks into a pregnancy. Sharon's been pregnant for about a week, tops. Maybe it's some Cylon metabolism thing. Cause two days later, she can't stop eating. (Wrong again.)
amycurl
Jun. 5th, 2007 08:42 pm (UTC)
So she is pregnant!! Ok, I like to know I'm right. :-) Also, why would the Cylons program in morning sickness, which is a human weakness? There's no particular "need" for it; you'd have thought they would have found a biomechanical way of balancing out the hormones of pregnancy.
(no subject) - marymary - Jun. 6th, 2007 12:31 am (UTC) - Expand
tomfoolery815
Dec. 20th, 2006 07:07 pm (UTC)
So I think that the Cylons believe that all that Kobol stuff happened, and they have read all the same texts, but they think that the humans have misunderstood everything and don't realize that there's one God directing all of them (humans and Cylons alike).
On the occasions to this point when the Cylons discuss theology with humans, there's a certain gentle patronizing from the Cylon in question going on: "Ooh, you're so close. You think there's more than one deity. That's adorable." But the Cylons know the humans' faith, too.

I'm reminded of the Leoben with Kara in "Flesh and Bone." He plays upon her faith because he understands it so thoroughly. Yes, he's manipulating her, but to have success in manipulation he has to know where in her faith construct to strike. He says, over the course of the interrogation: "This is not your path, Starbuck. You have a different destiny ... all of this has happened before and all of it will happen again ... deliver my soul ... do it for me. It's your destiny and mine ... you're gonna find Kobol ... this is my gift to you." None of this would work if it wasn't spoken in Kara's faith language.

This discussion of faith across the racial divide comes up later as well, but I'll shut up now. :-)
watson1
Dec. 21st, 2006 01:56 am (UTC)
I agree with Tom that they use the same texts, but interpret them differently, and here's why. At one point (I honestly can't remember where) ChipSix explains to Baltar that the humans' gods, the lords of Kobol, were not actually gods; they just thought they were and so did the people. So I think that the Cylons believe that all that Kobol stuff happened, and they have read all the same texts, but they think that the humans have misunderstood everything and don't realize that there's one God directing all of them (humans and Cylons alike). Would that make sense?

Yes it does, Mary. I don't remember the conversation between Baltar and Chip Six, but the fact that they had it resolves the issue for me. So I think that you are right in the argument that they've read the same texts, but have different interpretations of them.

On the occasions to this point when the Cylons discuss theology with humans, there's a certain gentle patronizing from the Cylon in question going on: "Ooh, you're so close. You think there's more than one deity. That's adorable." But the Cylons know the humans' faith, too.

Good point, Tommy. You're right about the patronizing attitudes that the Cylons have towards humans, not just with religion, but with all aspects of the humans lives. They see the humans as inferior -- therefore, their interpretation of religious scriptures would also be not as "advanced" as the Cylons.

I say this in the friendliest, most inquisitive way possible: I'm not sure why this is a stumbling block for you. :-)

Just because Tommy, but it isn't anymore. :-)
watson1
Dec. 21st, 2006 02:01 am (UTC)
Helo and Sharon are in a hay-loft (which, quite frankly, they wasted)

Yes they did Mary. Perhaps they were concerned about getting hay in unmentionable places?

I noticed Helo going right over the puddle as well -- and I had the same response.

Regarding the pregnancy symptoms -- I'll take your word for it, being childless myself. :-)
watson1
Dec. 21st, 2006 02:07 am (UTC)
One more funny moment from the episode that people haven't mentioned -- when Bill, Tigh, Lee and Kara were discussing the battle plans -- Kara looked at Tigh and smiled and also winked. I was laughing my ass off -- Tigh just gave her this look back like why in the hell is she here? It was just a quick moment to highlight the antagonism between the two.

Going along with the fatherhood discussion -- not just between Lee & Bill in this episode, but you also had the scene between Bill and Kara in the gym. He wasn't just the commander who ordered her not to fly. Instead, he acted more as a father would. He showed her why she couldn't fly, by continually adding weights to the machine. He made her understand that even though she wanted to do something very badly, she wasn't capable of it.
tomfoolery815
Dec. 21st, 2006 03:53 am (UTC)
I noticed Helo going right over the puddle as well -- and I had the same response.
"A simple 'no' would suffice." Heh.

One more funny moment from the episode that people haven't mentioned -- when Bill, Tigh, Lee and Kara were discussing the battle plans -- Kara looked at Tigh and smiled and also winked.
I loved that too, Watsy: Back in the miniseries, Saul tells Kara that his problem is personal and hers is professional. Nearly reciprocally, this isn't the first time that Saul has attacked Kara professionally and Kara has counter-attacked personally. The wink just gave it a somehow charmingly mean twist. :-)

More funny things:

-- At Laura's Snakes On A Podium press conference, the reporter holds the tape recorder at arm's length for several seconds after she's gone.

-- When Baltar is asked where the staging tanks are located at the tyllium (?) mine, his eyes dart about, seemingly for something that will sound good.

-- During the mission, the people opposite Laura and Baltar in the situation room look like PBS pledge drive operators to me.
marymary
Jan. 9th, 2007 12:53 am (UTC)
Hey, everybody. It's been several weeks since we've posted and I don't think anyone is still celebrating Christmas right? So fair warning --- I'm going to start talking Colonial Day sometime in the next 24. Fingers ready....

And somebody try to pick up Christina's transponder, wouldya? :) We miss her.
watson1
Jan. 9th, 2007 04:40 am (UTC)
I'm ready Mary, whenever you are.
marymary
Jan. 9th, 2007 08:37 pm (UTC)
Colonial Day
This episode certainly shows what a natural politician Laura is. To Bill: “The last thing I need is for you to start acting like my personal goon squad. We need to let this play out.”

I love the start of the quorum:
- Saul stares at Zarek in the receiving line and refuses to take his hand.
- Ellen shakes Zarek’s hand warmly. “Wake up Saul; look at these cameras!”
- Laura dares Zarek to offer his hand, then takes it and greets him in a formal, ceremonial way. There’s no doubt in his mind about her feelings, but she knows that dissing Zarek will only work against her.
- Cut to Baltar in his place at the quorum, headdesking in boredom. Ha!

ChipSix tells Baltar he’s free to sleep with whomever he wants, but he can’t give anyone else his heart. Or else she’ll rip it out of his chest. Not for nothin’, but that’s just what you’d imagine your scary sexy robot girlfriend to saying to you. :-)
tomfoolery815
Jan. 9th, 2007 11:36 pm (UTC)
Not for nothin’, but that’s just what you’d imagine your scary sexy robot girlfriend to saying to you. :-)
BWAH! Exactly. TH and JC do a great job in that moment; she brings across a menace that mixes nicely with our uncertainty about her (and Cylons generally) to make us think it's possible, he displays a look of sheer terror that lets us know he believes it's possible, too.

Cut to Baltar in his place at the quorum, headdesking in boredom. Ha!
Since most of us (all of us?) are TWW conversant ... GB starts out at the quorum as Christopher Wick of "Five Votes Down" infamy. (Josh: "Shove it, Dude!) Interested in the perks, not at all interested in any actual public service. After Chip's heart-ripping threat, he jumps up to second the motion; but he hasn't been paying attention, so it's classic Baltar subterfuge: "From a constitutional standpoint, I agree with Zarek ... for reasons that are far too obvious and numerous to go into right now."

By the time the episode is over, he's transformed himself into John Hoynes.

Baltar's lust for fame and glory is one of the leading components of his knack for self-preservation. He knows the moment when it presents itself, especially with Chip there ("Haven't you missed the limelight?") to nudge him into action. I love that they have GB actually yank the interviewer's microphone out of his hand before his attention-getting speech.

I also love the choice of swingin' music played as Baltar comes out after Laura introduces him. :-)Because -- toward Mary's point about Laura's political acumen -- she says "Better the devil you know."
amycurl
Jun. 5th, 2007 11:43 pm (UTC)
Yes, again...interesting that "King of the Road" has made it allthewayoverthere, isn't it? And American jazz in general. Hmmm.....
(no subject) - tomfoolery815 - Jun. 6th, 2007 12:48 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - amycurl - Jun. 6th, 2007 02:37 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tomfoolery815 - Jun. 6th, 2007 02:41 am (UTC) - Expand
marymary
Jan. 9th, 2007 11:40 pm (UTC)
Hoynes indeed.

The Ball: Man, there’s not much I like better than Flustered Lee Adama. (I’m thinking of the dinner for Ellen Tigh.) And, now, Starbuck cleans up real good --- she’s in the pretty blue dress and Lee is gobsmacked. So HOW does she not close that deal? Yeah, I already know how. And it’s something she says in Kobol’s Last Gleaming Part 1: “Cause I’m a screw-up, Lee; try to keep that in mind.” That’s exactly right; she’s not being funny. She’s her own worst enemy. She punishes herself. In this case, by giving the second dance to Gaius. If only Leoben had been invited! I’m sure he’d volunteer to let her use him to punish herself for a couple hours.

But this couple is all fun:
Laura: “I thought you didn’t like politics.”
Bill: “It’s Colonial Day. Where else would I be? I’m a patriot.”
Laura: “You are, aren’t you?”
(they talk about the dangers of politics)
Bill: “You’re still standing.”
Laura: “As are you.”
Bill: “And I can dance.”
Laura gives an incredulous look and giggles.

Seriously, the range on that woman. :-)
amycurl
Jun. 5th, 2007 11:46 pm (UTC)
there’s not much I like better than Flustered Lee Adama.
I. KNOW!! Isn't it great?!?
Isn't that the look that every woman who has ever cleaned up ever is going for? God. I really, really loved them in that moment. To go from the water hose to that dress--what more would a man ever want in a woman? Honestly, people!
marymary
Jan. 9th, 2007 11:43 pm (UTC)
He knows the moment when it presents itself

Yeah, Tom, I love the scene where Roslin and company are strategizing on Colonial One, only she’s listening to Baltar’s interview on the wireless. (In general, I like that device: We focus on the character who's watching or listening to something more important than what's going on in the room. It creates suspense so well.)

Anyway, he’s brilliant: “(as opposed to Laura Roslin)...Tom Zarek has accomplished nothing. How could he? He’s been in prison for the last 20 years.” Heh. Laura sees her chance, and I like how she puts it. “I’m going to win this. But first, I have two very unpleasant duties to perform.” Ha. Firing Wally and offering the nomination to Baltar.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 9th, 2007 11:52 pm (UTC)
Seriously, the range on that woman. :-)
Most definitely. I love it any time LR giggles. Because I'm never expecting it. :-)

Laura giggling here is actually a nice bookend to her doing so at the start of "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down." Then, it was faux-flirtatious misdirection, as she tried to figure out if she could trust Bill, if he was a Cylon. Here, it's a reflection of the progress they've made in their shotgun-wedding marriage. It's a genuine, "check you out, Bill Adama!" giggle. Sweet. :-)
tomfoolery815
Jan. 10th, 2007 03:41 am (UTC)
If only Leoben had been invited! I’m sure he’d volunteer to let her use him to punish herself for a couple hours.
Heh. :-) Maybe he was tied up working on the photo shoot for Doral's calendar.
marymary
Jan. 10th, 2007 03:43 am (UTC)
Well, that's the thing about Laura, she's complex. One of her main qualities is the ability to be in the moment and react in a genuine way. Once she absorbs and processes, then she's extremely focused and resolute. But, in the moment, she's very much on the surface, emotionally. That's how you get the Laura Glistening Eyes and the giggle. There's an episode in Season 2 which is my absolute favorite giggly Roslin. I'm sure a few of you know which one I mean.

One other thing: I love Sharon and Helo, on Caprica, as he wonders about the two Sixes he’s seen. He thinks they might be clones of humans, with messed up DNA. Sharon: "Then maybe they’re capable of complex emotions --- maybe even love. Maybe they’re misguided in the way they were indoctrinated." Her protests are kinda heartbreaking when you think about it.
amycurl
Jun. 5th, 2007 11:49 pm (UTC)
Yeah, if there was any doubt her fleeing/ feeling wasn't genuine...wasn't part of the plan, right there, it's gone. She's so desperate to be understood, to understand herself, I'm sure.

And the devastation as Helo runs away after putting the pieces together.....Did folks on TWoP really think this woman didn't know how to act?
(no subject) - marymary - Jun. 6th, 2007 12:37 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tomfoolery815 - Jun. 6th, 2007 12:58 am (UTC) - Expand
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