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Where Starbuck finally gets her hands on Apollo's arrow.
- The Hand of God
- Colonial Day
- Kobol's Last Gleaming, 1 and 2

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( 128 comments — Leave a comment )
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tomfoolery815
Jan. 10th, 2007 04:37 am (UTC)
Her protests are kinda heartbreaking when you think about it.
Yes, they are. She's testing the depths of Helo's compassion. And he replies: "They're not human." Which tells her that she has a steep hill to climb before he's ready to hear her next bit of news.
watson1
Jan. 10th, 2007 04:58 am (UTC)
Her protests are kinda heartbreaking when you think about it.

Definitely heartbreaking, and so sad. She just wanted to get Helo to try to understand, but he can't. And as Tommy said, she definitely has a steep hill to climb. And Grace Park's face during that conversation -- you could see that she just wanted him to understand her feelings -- even though he doesn't know about her. Once again, so heartbreaking.

Also, the final Helo/Sharon scene -- when he runs away from her after seeing that other version of Sharon. She just look so upset when she's yelling for him to stop. While I can understand why he ran if you look at it from his point of view, I just felt so bad for Sharon too.
marymary
Jan. 10th, 2007 05:02 am (UTC)
I just felt so bad for Sharon too.

Exactly. As the viewers, we've seen that Sharon has gone AWOL and risked her life because she loves Helo, but he's not there yet --- he still has a whole process to go through.
watson1
Jan. 10th, 2007 05:13 am (UTC)
And taking off from both of your comments about Laura as a politician -- I was struck by how much this episode says about politics overall. Starting with Wally, the man who was actually qualified to be vice president, who gets dumped because he is dull. When he was laying out his how ever many point education plan, you know what's coming.

And as you both mentioned, you get Laura the politician is definitely in play in this episode. She asked Wally to run for V.P. because she thinks he's the right man for the job, but then later believes she has to dump him because he can't "sell" her as president. You saw that in the exchange between the two of them when she asks him to withdraw for the stereotypical excuse -- health reasons. And his reaction to her illustrates that she has become a politician, because she now exists in the world of politicians.
watson1
Jan. 10th, 2007 05:21 am (UTC)
By the time the episode is over, he's transformed himself into John Hoynes.

Yes, he has. He's the all about the glory and power associated with politicians. As evidenced by the women who greeted him during the ball, and him blowing off Chip Six because he was too busy for her.

I also loved the scene in which Laura asked him to run as vice president -- while he was in a bathroom (as opulent as it was). A backroom deal in a bathroom, for purely political reasons. What does that say about politics. And what does it say about Gaius, when he agrees to put his name in the ring, and then heads back into the stall with the reporter. Gaius is all about Gaius.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 10th, 2007 05:59 am (UTC)
Exactly. As the viewers, we've seen that Sharon has gone AWOL and risked her life because she loves Helo, but he's not there yet --- he still has a whole process to go through.
It's an example of the brilliance of this show, I think: Taking any notion of "these are the good guys, so these other people must be the bad guys" and knocking it sideways. Even given the post-apocalyptic setting, and that "these other people" had brought about the apocalypse.

By this point in the series, the viewer has been forced to accept that, while the Cylons generally are determined to destroy the human race, they are sentient. They aren't going to march in mindless lockstep like the "toasters."

It's a testament to Grace Park's skill as an actor that the viewer ends up sympathetic toward this Sharon, who's, you know, still a Cylon and knows it. (She does great, distinct work as Boomer, too, but that's for another ep thread.) It started out as merely a mission for her, but it's become something radically different. I find myself wanting to say to Helo -- and any other human she may encounter :-) -- "Come on! Can't you see she really loves him?" So by "Colonial Day" she'd already convinced me. :-)
marymary
Jan. 11th, 2007 01:34 am (UTC)
When he was laying out his how ever many point education plan, you know what's coming.

Heh, so true. :) He needed Josh Lyman.
marymary
Jan. 11th, 2007 01:36 am (UTC)
Kobol's Last Gleaming
Well, ok I'll move on...

First, an ode to the BSG score. I love the poundy drums. I love the pingy Cylon music. I even like the Season 3 basestar piano. But I think my favorite piece is the strings in 3/4 time that they use at the top of this episode.

Also, this is one of my favorite teasers, cause I’m a freak for symmetry. :-)

1. Kara has totally self-hating sex with Baltar, calling out for Lee in the end.
2. Lee takes a beating. Lee hits the mat. Lee’s down for the count. (pick your metaphor)

1. Boomer tries to work up the courage to kill herself.
2. Helo points a gun at Sharon, and she says “Just do it.” And winces.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 11th, 2007 02:05 am (UTC)
It IS all about the symmetry.

When Lee asks Bill "You all right?", it's a little patronizing. When Bill starts kicking Lee's ass, the same words become a taunt.

And then here's some foreshadowing ...
BILL: You gotta lose control, let your instincts take over.
LEE: I thought we were just sparring.
BILL: That's why you don't win.
Lee, of course, goes on to apply this line of thinking to Kara, literally and figuratively.

I like the slow reveal in the sex scene. (You know what I mean.) She's having sex with somebody. She calls out Lee's name -- only it's not a low, moaned "Lee." It's an ecstatic, high-pitched "LEE!" One significant problem: That's not Lee with her in bed. Which makes her calling out Lee's name so, well, orgasmically all the more humiliating for Baltar.

Chip seems pleased that Kara called out the wrong name; while she'd given him permission to sleep with other women just one episode before, she wants it to just be sex for sport, which seems right in Baltar's wheelhouse. As we learn, that's not quite what was happening from Baltar's perspective.
marymary
Jan. 11th, 2007 03:20 am (UTC)
LEE: I thought we were just sparring.
BILL: That's why you don't win.


You're right, it does seem to apply to Lee/Kara. On the other hand, I think them being not being together is mostly on her. Not that Lee couldn't change things...more in a minute.

Bill's line from Bill's perspective --- I don’t know how I feel about that. I mean, it sounds so pithy that it must be true, right? And Lee does have trouble going for the jugular sometimes... But, there is such a thing as sparring. And a strong young man hitting a 60-year-old hard, in the stomach, asking whether he’s ok. I’m having trouble seeing that as weakness.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 11th, 2007 03:48 am (UTC)
But, there is such a thing as sparring. And a strong young man hitting a 60-year-old hard, in the stomach, asking whether he’s ok. I’m having trouble seeing that as weakness.
Yeah, sorry: I misread my notes, and it's been a few weeks since I watched this one. :-) I should have wrote: When Lee says it, it's compassionate. When Bill says it, it's both patronizing and taunting.

Bill says Lee's compassion is weakness. But from Lee's perspective, it's "What, I'm going to beat up my old man?" The thing is, Bill's plenty tough; he can take it. He decides he needs to teach his son a lesson (kinda "Great Santini" style). So he exploits the weakness -- Lee seeing his father, instead of an opponent to be defeated swiftly -- and whips Lee in the boxing sense. Bill seems to suggest that this is a kind of weakness that could harm Lee in combat; but when he's not facing off with his father, Lee's mind is pretty clear.

Having just been caught with his guard down, and made to pay for it, Lee applies this lesson to his relationship with Kara.
(no subject) - marymary - Jan. 11th, 2007 03:57 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tomfoolery815 - Jan. 11th, 2007 04:53 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - watson1 - Jan. 15th, 2007 02:49 am (UTC) - Expand
marymary
Jan. 11th, 2007 03:26 am (UTC)
As long as we're talking about Kara and Lee, I have a few thoughts. :-)

There’s a deleted scene, which I think they should have left in. Lee finds Kara in her rack the morning after the ball. He gets her up for a run. He notes that she looks messed up and jokes that she must have gotten laid the previous night. She brushes it off. They run. He teases her about it again, and he realizes he’s touched a nerve. Lee: "Anyone I know?" Kara: "Frack off." At this point, Lee thinks Kara might have slept with someone, and he’s acting like he’s ok with it. Kara, remembering how painful it was to hear Lee’s name come out of her mouth in the heat of passion, is even more humiliated in the face of his indifference. So she bolts.

Later (in the episode that aired) Gaius gets drunk playing "poker". He leers and snorts in Kara’s direction, and Lee figures out that they were together. Lee confronts her on the hangar deck. "Why’d you do it, Kara? Just tell me why." Kara: "Cause I’m a screw-up, Lee. Try to keep that in mind." As I’ve said, that is the truthful answer. I think she risks too much by having sex with Lee, whom she loves. It’s more right, more familiar to punish herself with something stupid like sex with Baltar.

Later, Lee whips out the full UST. He calls her to attention. (ah, baby!) "You do not take your hair-brained ideas to the XO without taking them to me first, do you understand?"
Kara: "It might work, sir."
Lee: "Might work. Might get you killed." (whoops!)
Kara: "Would you miss me, sir?"
Lee: "I need every pilot I have. Even the screw-ups."
(That’s some nice writing there, cause it’s a direct link back to her sleeping with Baltar. That was her explanation for it: "I’m a screw-up." So by using those words, he reveals that that’s what they’re actually talking about. Therefore…..)
Kara: "Captain! .........I’m really sorry." (about the sex)

I love scenes like that. Because they tell you about the characters’ mindsets and feelings about each other, without any exposition. AND they constitute real communication between the characters. What I mean is that there could be three versions of this conversation. a) the conversation between two friends about one of them having sex, b) the conversation between a friend and someone who’s in love with his friend about one of them having sex, and then c) the conversation between two people in love about one of them having sex.

a) L: "So you had sex with Baltar?" K: "(laughs) Why, you wanna hear all about it?" L: "Just wondering whether everything’s as big as that brain of his. Heh."

b) L: "Why’d you do it, Kara?" K: "What’s up with you? I had sex. Aren’t I allowed to have sex? I don’t understand; why are you on my case about this?"

c) L: "Why’d you do it, Kara?" K: "Cause I’m a screw up, Lee.........I’m really sorry."

See, in scenario b) Lee is showing Kara that he’s upset that she had sex, but she’s calling him on it. (We’re friends --- why do you care?) In scenario c) (which is what we have in this episode) he’s tipping his hand, but also she’s accepting the premise. She’s saying, "I understand why you’re angry. I screwed up by having sex with him. I’m sorry." This is two people who are not only in love, but are admitting to each other that they’re in love.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 11th, 2007 04:05 am (UTC)
Wow, Mary. Some thoughts, yes. :-) Thoroughly, impressively deconstructed. :-)

I should've watched the deleted scene. With that scene deleted, the viewer is (well, this one was, anyway) led to think that the card game might have taken place the same night as the Kara/GB tryst. Which would've meant the card game was taking place at about 3 in the morning, but still.

Because GB is an open wound there, drunkenly seeming to talk about cards ("You can't compete with me. I always win") but in fact telling Lee he's in a different competition altogether. Then he demands decorum from Kara ("Or is this a pirate ship?" Heh.) while near tears, arousing Lee's suspicions. I was attributing Lee piecing it together so quickly to his knowledge of the way Kara is.

So they punch each other. Lee going with his instincts.

Mary, I'll see your three conversations at once and raise you a toggling between those conversations in the same sentence:

"Captain ... I'm really sorry."

At the start of that scene, Kara had been disrespectful and dismissive until she saw his face. Then she got serious.

KARA: Would you miss me, sir? (UST, then back to military)
LEE: I need every pilot I have ... even the screw-ups (military, then back to the UST, as you point out.)
KARA: Captain ... I'm really sorry. (Military, then touchingly back to UST.)

I'm reminded of my "You Can't Go Home Again" impression of Kara: Smart-Ass Kara is entertaining, but Guard Down Kara is endearing. When she takes the toothy-grin mask off and shows someone her heart, as she does with that last line, it's touching.

And if the Adama men would just forgive Kara when she needs it, they'd have a lot less trouble. :-)
marymary
Jan. 11th, 2007 04:15 am (UTC)
Smart-Ass Kara is entertaining, but Guard Down Kara is endearing. When she takes the toothy-grin mask off and shows someone her heart, as she does with that last line, it's touching.

Someone --- it was probably Jacob --- said something like, "There's that fine line between ghoulish and girlish, and Kara slips in there like she's paper-thin." I'm probably mangling the line, but you get it.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 11th, 2007 04:29 am (UTC)
Feels like a Jacob line. Because it takes a big brain like his to bypass the first listed definition of ghoulish (cannibalism, vampirism) for the sake of good wordplay. :-)
marymary
Jan. 11th, 2007 04:37 am (UTC)
Yeah, I see your point. :) But I also get why he (?) calls her that. When she laughs or smiles sometimes --- there's this sheer, almost creepy, delight in something that's usually not that cool. Like someone embarrassing himself, or something bad happening, or just her own self being drunk. She goes into "unseemly" territory with the crazy eyes and the cackle. If you imagine the same behavior by an old woman or by an unattractive man, it's kinda gross.

Really, it's a testament to Katee Sackhoff that she can swing back to sweet and vulnerable and we go with her.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 11th, 2007 04:48 am (UTC)
But I also get why he (?) calls her that.
Oh, I totally get it ... now. :-) I had to look it up, because my first reaction was "Ghoulish? WTF?" But my Webster's has, as the third definition, "A person who derives pleasure from loathsome things." Which is exactly what you're talking about.

sheer, almost creepy, delight in something that's usually not that cool.
Such as appearing to enjoy torturing Leoben, for example? :-)

If you imagine the same behavior by an old woman or by an unattractive man, it's kinda gross.
Good point. Were she not buff-athletic beautiful -- she was workin' the blue dress, most definitely :-) -- it wouldn't be nearly as tolerable.

I suspect a comparable situation is Julian McMahon on "Nip/Tuck." It's OK if you don't watch; his IMDb photo will make my case for me. :-) His character is a scoundrel and nearly morally bankrupt, but he's so pretty. It's remarkable how much more we, as humans, will put up with the more attractive somebody is.

Really, it's a testament to Katee Sackhoff that she can swing back to sweet and vulnerable and we go with her.
Definitely. But then I'm even more tolerant of her since having seen "The Farm."
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