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Where Starbuck finally gets her hands on Apollo's arrow.
- The Hand of God
- Colonial Day
- Kobol's Last Gleaming, 1 and 2

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watson1
Jan. 15th, 2007 02:37 am (UTC)
Okay, I'm finally caught up on Part I, therefore here.

I like the slow reveal in the sex scene. (You know what I mean.) She's having sex with somebody.

When I was watching it, I noticed that during the reveal, as you called it Tommy, in the first scene, the man that she is with has short hair. It isn't until the actual reveal in the second scene that it definitely shows that she is with Baltar. I think that the visual of the short haired man is a prelude to her fantasy, which is later revealed by her moaning Lee.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 15th, 2007 03:01 am (UTC)
the man that she is with has short hair.
You've seen it more recently than I have, so I trust what you saw. But that sounds right.

I think that the visual of the short haired man is a prelude to her fantasy .... Lee
Definitely. Which is interesting bit of messing with us.

I know there is the symmetry in 3/4 time, so there's intercutting. But if I recall correctly, the lighting, the bedsheets, the room are the same throughout the "Kara having sex" visuals. It seems as though, in other TV or movie instances where someone is having sex with one person but thinking about another, the viewer is given a visual cue or cues as to which is which. (I'm thinking of "The Devil's Advocate" with Keanu Reeves, Charlize Theron and Connie Nielsen, but I'm sure I've seen other instances of this.)
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watson1
Jan. 15th, 2007 03:19 am (UTC)
Going along with the earlier comments about Starbuck being a screw-up and her exchange with Lee (and once again, I agree with the points that you both made)...

Starbuck's decision to steal the Raider and jump back to Caprica (which will be perceived as once again "screwing up" and testing the boundaries). Her initial exchange with Laura about her religious beliefs, Laura's comments about the dying leader showing them the way to Earth, etc. Kara may have believed in the Gods, may have believed in the myths, etc. and may have started to believe that Laura was the one who would lead them to Earth, but that wasn't enough to make her steal the raptor. It was her belief that Bill had betrayed her, that he had lied and screwed up, that she used to justify stealing the raptor. The one person that she believes will never screw up has, and that led her to make pivotal decision. She abandoned the mission, she abandoned everyone stranded on Kobol, and took off because of Bill's betrayal.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 15th, 2007 03:44 am (UTC)
It was her belief that Bill had betrayed her, that he had lied and screwed up, that she used to justify stealing the raptor.
There's that sad, but still Smart-Ass Kara, smile when Bill says “I don’t like to guess.” Because he's trying to perpetuate his lie about Earth, and she knows she's caught him in it.

I agree, Watsy: While her faith and Laura's talk of prophecy are factors in Kara taking off, and her confrontation with Lee is in the mix, the overriding motivator for Kara, as in "Act of Contrition," is the hurt that Bill, her de facto father, has caused her.
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watson1
Jan. 15th, 2007 03:59 am (UTC)
There's that sad, but still Smart-Ass Kara, smile when Bill says “I don’t like to guess.”

Yeah, I know. Bill never confirms that he has lied, but when she listens to him talk about Earth, and then he makes that comment, she knows. And gives him that smile.

Kara has placed Bill on such a pedestal, I think, that she can't handle it when he disappoints her. While I agree that she sees Bill as her de facto father her adoration of Bill goes even farther than that. I think that there are very few adults in this world who actually expect that their parents are perfect, because we know they aren't. I think that Kara actually sees Bill as perfect, so when he fails (at least in her mind), it has a much greater impact on her.

marymary
Jan. 15th, 2007 05:00 am (UTC)
Well, this is a very good point, especially considering Kara's enormous gaping vacuum where parents are concerned.

Now you're making me think about her vs. Lee. Lee certainly wants his father's approval --- the affection has often been missing from him --- but we see that he's quite capable of going against him, of being his own man, while staying open and vulnerable to Bill. It's a relatively healthy, workable relationship. My point is that we assume that Lee had a loving mother and a kinda there, sorta loving dad, so he's ok.

Kara had one parent, and she was abusive. So, on the one hand, she acts like she doesn't give a shit about anybody, as a defense. Yet, when she does give her heart (in this case, to Bill, as a father) she sees him as very one-dimensional. Perfect, as you say. So it costs her a lot, but once she's there, she's all-in. She doesn't leave room for Bill as a normal, fallible father, so his lie kinda breaks her. She doesn't see it coming -- she doesn't work with him, confront him or talk to him about it (like Lee would), she just bolts.
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marymary
Jan. 15th, 2007 05:08 am (UTC)
Before we leave KLG1:

I love Baltar’s scene with Laura and ChipSix.
Baltar: “I’m not your plaything!”
Laura and Chip, simultaneously: “Plaything?”

Also Baltar and Chip in the bathroom.
Baltar: “I’d like to be alone if you don’t mind.”
She slams his head into the mirror. I totally laughed out loud at that.

Now this is interesting. ChipSix insists, more than once, that Baltar leave Galactica so he’s not around when “it” happens. One assumes she means the assassination attempt. First, she says about Boomer, “The model is weak. It always has been. But in the end, she’ll carry out her mission.” Again, the disdain for Eights. But the mission part is vague enough --- if Boomer’s a sleeper, then presumably she’s there for a reason, so there has to be a mission of some kind. Chip saying that doesn’t really mean she knows anything. But then Chip is very specific about getting Baltar off Galactica at that particular time. If she’s a figment, you could say that Baltar now realizes that Boomer is a sleeper and that something’s going to happen and he wants as far away from it as possible. But I think that’s a bit of a stretch. This is one of the times that seems to point to her being an agent, independent of Baltar. It seems more like she wants to keep him from being implicated in any way in the assassination. When ChipSix gets prescient and specific like that, I lean toward “agent”.
watson1
Jan. 16th, 2007 01:20 am (UTC)
*Hears Mary whistling, runs to LJ.*

I love Baltar’s scene with Laura and ChipSix.
Baltar: “I’m not your plaything!”
Laura and Chip, simultaneously: “Plaything?”


I'm with you. That entire scene just cracked me, as does every scene when Gaius is trying to have a discussion with humans and ChipSix at the same time. You can almost see his mind working...trying to formulate responses that are appropriate both to the people, and to ChipSix. And at some point in that conversation, you know he's going to slip, and say "plaything" or something like it.

If she’s a figment, you could say that Baltar now realizes that Boomer is a sleeper and that something’s going to happen and he wants as far away from it as possible. But I think that’s a bit of a stretch. This is one of the times that seems to point to her being an agent, independent of Baltar. It seems more like she wants to keep him from being implicated in any way in the assassination. When ChipSix gets prescient and specific like that, I lean toward “agent”.

I agree. I think that chipsix was a little too specific in that scene to suggest that she is a figment. Baltar certainly could have deduced, based on his knowledge that Boomer is a cylon and based on what she said during that discussion: "I want to do bad things and can't stop myself" (paraphrased, because I can't read my actual hand writing), that Boomer was going to do something. However, even with that knowledge, there'd be very little reason for him to think that he must leave Galactica. Yet, ChipSix keeps saying that she wants him far away from Galactica. It's the suggestion that he leave, not the knowledge that something may be coming up, that indicates Chip is an independent agent.


marymary
Jan. 15th, 2007 08:41 pm (UTC)
*whistles in her empty LJ*

Ok, another thing. Grace Park in this episode is so powerful. Culminating with her lying in a hospital bed with her face horribly shot up. Chief visits and she blinks back tears at the ceiling: “I’m on my own…” God, she really gets me there. How alone would that character feel? Suspecting she’s a Cylon, feeling so horrible that she wants to die, and feeling like she’d lost the last person she could even dream of confiding in.

Also...I really love the physical world of Galactica. The huge corded phones, the big wheels on the doors. It's all gun-metal gray and even though it's not even set in our society, everything is so "retro". Kind of 40s through 70s to me. And I love the little pluggers they use when somebody pops a hole in a raptor. Are those RL things? They’re just so cool to me.
watson1
Jan. 16th, 2007 01:27 am (UTC)
Grace Park in that final scene when she's in the hospital bed certainly got to me, too, as did her struggle during the conversation with Baltar. During the scene with Baltar, you can see that she doesn't want to commit suicide. But feeling that she's going to do something horrible makes her consider it. And her acting was so powerful doing that scene, because you can literally that struggle.

Another thing about the Baltar/Boomer scene -- how Baltar responded to her during that conversation. How did you read that scene? My impression was that he was urging her to do it, with that comment about following her heart, not her head. And it was her heart, and her feelings, that made her think she was going to do something bad. And, then of course, when Baltar and Six walk away, and hear the shot. They stop for a second, and then keep walking.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 16th, 2007 05:11 pm (UTC)
I lean toward him encouraging her to commit suicide, Watsy. Since GB is about self-preservation, if Sharon -- whom he learned was a Cylon, then told no one -- kills herself, it does keep him out of the brig.

He walks in when she's got the gun up to her mouth -- in my notes I wrote "Does no one knock on Galactica?" First Kara interrupts GB's alone-but-not-quite time in the lab in TMU, TMD, now this -- so he knows she's contemplating suicide.

Mary, I agree with your conclusion that Chip is an agent. She's warned GB to leave Galactica, so I think she knows something is about to go down. The fact that she and GB walk away from Sharon's obvious suicide attempt suggests that she knows Baltar needs distance, physical or otherwise, from whatever Sharon does, be it the suicide attempt or the assassination attempt.
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tomfoolery815
Jan. 16th, 2007 04:55 am (UTC)
I love Baltar’s scene with Laura and ChipSix.
It's JC at his best. Baltar is so 'round the bend with Chip at this point that he's repeatedly trying to give one answer to two questions.

Baltar (to Chip): I can't handle this!
Laura: You're a genius, are you not?

Baltar: “I’m not your plaything!”
Laura and Chip, simultaneously: “Plaything?”

And then he says "Either of you!" Prompting Laura and Billy to exchange WTF? glances. :-)
marymary
Jan. 16th, 2007 05:53 am (UTC)
And then he says "Either of you!" Prompting Laura and Billy to exchange WTF? glances. :-)

One of the things Ron Moore talks about in this commentary is how brilliant the Baltar/Six scenes are. Not only Callis' performance, but the way the scenes are written/structured. He points out that, in most things with a premise like this (invisible friend), the character does something so blatant that the viewer says to himself, "Well, if I were talking to that person, I'd know something was up." The character talks directly to the invisible friend or does something else to give himself away. In the case of Baltar, he's always just this side of the line. He avoids the blunder at the last second and covers or he makes his conversation to Six fit the situation in the room. So, as you say, when he says "Either of you." there are, in fact, two people in the room. So the reaction is Billy thinking, "Wait, how did I get pulled into this?"
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tomfoolery815
Jan. 16th, 2007 05:04 am (UTC)
Ok, another thing. Grace Park in this episode is so powerful. Culminating with her lying in a hospital bed with her face horribly shot up. Chief visits and she blinks back tears at the ceiling: “I’m on my own…” God, she really gets me there. How alone would that character feel? Suspecting she’s a Cylon, feeling so horrible that she wants to die, and feeling like she’d lost the last person she could even dream of confiding in.
She is especially good in this one, for all the reasons Mary has laid out.

I also like Aaron Douglas' work in this scene. He brings across how sad Chief feels: Chief knew he'd done what he had to do for himself in breaking up with her, but now he feels he played a role in sending Boomer down this path.

His salute to her before he leaves the infirmary? Heart-breaking.
marymary
Jan. 16th, 2007 05:47 am (UTC)
Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part 2
Look, we're almost at the end of the season!

Deleted scene: Before the standoff. Laura’s failed to sway Bill on the trip to Caprica for the arrow, so she tries Lee. He agrees with her logic about the arrow, but says even if she’s right, he can’t go against a direct order and use military assets like that. She says, “You are your father’s son.” Lee: “In this case, yes.” He asks if that’s ok, and she says she understands. That’s a mom for you.

Then (in the episode) Lee’s one of the party going to arrest the president. They reach a standoff, and he says, “No, this is wrong.” and puts a gun to Tigh’s head. That’s so Lee. I loved his defense (The president makes one mistake and we sacrifice the democracy?) And look, he’s on Mom’s side after all. This dynamic goes back to the very first episodes of the season. God, I love continuity.

Also interesting that Laura’s ready to resist until Lee joins her side. Lee puts a gun to Tigh’s head and she backs down. Now, we know she’s not backing down cause she loves Tigh and doesn’t want to see him hurt. Let’s see, who else would get hurt if Lee shot Tigh? That would be Lee. You could say that she backs down simply because she sees the situation escalating, but that doesn’t quite hold water; if she has armed security pointing guns at the advancing party, she has to at least anticipate violence. I think what changes is that Lee’s in danger, and she says, “Enough. I’ll go.”

Dad gives Lee his punishment as he stands, cuffed, in CIC. Boomer returns victorious. Bill says to her (as Lee listens): “...and you did it despite any personal misgivings you might have had, and for that I am very proud.” I would have loved it if Lee had rolled his eyes at that. :-)
tomfoolery815
Jan. 16th, 2007 04:32 pm (UTC)
Also...I really love the physical world of Galactica. The huge corded phones,
I do, too. They're oddly comforting. :-) When I saw the miniseries, I dismissed the corded phones as down to Galactica's relative age. But then LR's ship had them, too! And so does Pegasus! What, they mastered Faster Than Light transportation technology but couldn't work out cordless phones? It's as if the Colonial Fleet hired an interior designer who convinced them to go retro.

Dad gives Lee his punishment as he stands, cuffed, in CIC. Boomer returns victorious. Bill says to her (as Lee listens): “...and you did it despite any personal misgivings you might have had, and for that I am very proud.” I would have loved it if Lee had rolled his eyes at that. :-)
Or muttered to himself: "I'll bet KARA would've gotten a MEDAL for doing what I did."

That's an outstanding analysis of the Laura/Lee mother/son dynamic, Mary. And removing that deleted scene borders on criminal. ;-) I can usually come to an understanding as to why a scene gets cut: It's redundant to another scene, doesn't really advance any of the storylines, etc. But that one's significant to what happens in the next seven episodes, so I think they could've taken a minute off of the establishing shots of Caprica. :-)

I think what changes is that Lee’s in danger, and she says, “Enough. I’ll go.”
Laura's such a chess player in her interaction -- I don't mean manipulative, although sometimes she does that, but always thinking about the next three moves and counter-moves -- that I can see "I'll go" as dual-purpose: Not only did she want to protect Lee from harm, I believe she knew that she'd need Lee for whatever came next. She cares deeply about him, but there's also the fact that she's the president and Bill's about to set up a junta.
amycurl
Jun. 6th, 2007 12:23 pm (UTC)
What, they mastered Faster Than Light transportation technology but couldn't work out cordless phones?

And somehow, though they were colonized by people who must have had advanced transportation technology, there were still tall sailing vessels on the 12 colonies at some point? WTF? Sometimes it's the small things--like Bill working on the model ship in on of the eps--that really bothers me and takes me out of the story a little.
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tomfoolery815
Jan. 16th, 2007 04:50 pm (UTC)
It's interesting to see, in this ep, just how fragile the Laura/Bill relationship is. It was a shotgun (well, nuclear bomb) wedding, so they had been forced by circumstance to get along. Over the last 51 days, they've found aspects of each other they like, plus a hint of attraction.

But they're both strong and proud. It's remarkable, but in retrospect unsurprising, just how fast the situation deteriorates.

Laura admits to telling Kara to go to Caprica.
Bill asks her to resign, then says he's terminating her presidency.
Laura says "coup?" then says he'll have to arrest her. (Whoa.)
Bill says he doesn't want any blood shed. (WHOA!)
But here's my chess player: Laura says the press is in the room with her, recording every minute. Bill hangs up the corded phone. Laura wins this round of Chicken.

Then, each thinks the other is bluffing, which shows us that each is simultaneously underestimating the other and thinking "won't do this to ME, right? He/she won't MAKE me do this?" This is a divorce in more ways than one.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 16th, 2007 05:46 pm (UTC)
(Rather than edit, I will do an addendum. ;-) )

"Divorce" is probably overstating it. "Serious domestic dispute." There, that's it. :-)

(I don't like the music Sci-Fi is using in the promos for the resumption of Season 3. BSG deserves better than cheeseball rock balladry.)
marymary
Jan. 16th, 2007 07:28 pm (UTC)
(I am so over "reply"; I'm sick of opening all these damned sub-threads! :-)

Mary, I agree with your conclusion that Chip is an agent. She's warned GB to leave Galactica, so I think she knows something is about to go down. The fact that she and GB walk away from Sharon's obvious suicide attempt suggests that she knows Baltar needs distance, physical or otherwise, from whatever Sharon does, be it the suicide attempt or the assassination attempt.

Scenes like that make me lean toward agent --- I've watched up through Season 3.0 and I have no conclusion yet. I trust RM and DE to make it all make sense in the end. But, case in point, why would a Cylon agent want to foil the assassination attempt? If ChipSix's purpose is to protect Baltar, then she would help him encourage the suicide. No Boomer, the Galactica's a safer place for Baltar. But if ChipSix is a Cylon agent, wouldn't she further the Cylon goal? If Boomer has a mission, Agent Chip should protect her until it's completed!

I agree that Gaius felt threatened by Boomer and that he put his interests ahead of her life and encouraged her to kill herself. And if Chip is a figment, she's on board with that.
marymary
Jan. 16th, 2007 07:33 pm (UTC)
And here's the other side of the argument, once again. (I think they just like messing with us. :-)

In this episode, Chip once again knows something that Baltar couldn't know. She meets him on Kobol. She leads him to the glowy cradle. “You are the guardian and protector of a generation of God’s children.” This is supposed to mean the child that Sharon is carrying --- the Cylon/human child. If it does, how could she possibly know about that unless she’s a Cylon agent? And if it doesn’t, then what does it mean? There’s no alternate explanation given for her words, even through season 3.0. In subsequent scenes, Chip says all kinds of stuff about that baby and its birth that are true.
tomfoolery815
Jan. 16th, 2007 07:52 pm (UTC)
If Boomer has a mission, Agent Chip should protect her until it's completed!
Right. I took a leap of faith (heh) on Chip's passive reaction to Boomer being suicidal.

It would seem Chip's top priority is keeping Baltar out of trouble long enough to "fulfill his destiny," without regard for other Cylon missions. She might know, somehow, that Sharon is headed toward putting two bullets in Bill if she can only overcome the "weakness" of her model. And of course, any Cylon would seem to want Sharon to pull that off, and assist where possible.

But if her Job 1 is to shepherd Baltar into position as Hera's Protector, she can't concern herself with whether Sharon lives long enough to shoot Bill. She's Ron Butterfield, and it's all about getting Jed into the limo. :-)

(I think they just like messing with us. :-)
I have no doubt about that. :-)
tomfoolery815
Jan. 16th, 2007 07:54 pm (UTC)
(I am so over "reply"; I'm sick of opening all these damned sub-threads! :-)
And then I went ahead and "replied," didn't I? Sorry. :-)
tomfoolery815
Jan. 16th, 2007 08:52 pm (UTC)
On the basestar, when Boomer's mind was being blown by the sight of all the Sharons -- "We love you, Sharon! And we always will." -- my mind was being blown by this possibility: The basestars are living organisms! At the spot where they land the Raptor, the "floor" looks distinctly like muscle and blood under skin.

Did the rest of you get that impression? That the metallic floors, walls and ceilings might actually be armor? I know that by this point, we've learned that the Raiders are living things that have "guts" and bleed.

And then, to top it off: After Boomer and ... Racetrack? (like it matters all that much) ... have gotten off the basestar but before it explodes, one of the Sharons caresses the nuke. Not unlike Boomer bonding with the Raider that Kara brought back.
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